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[Vengeance]

I hate this election.

Obama had me close to crawling off the fence and into his camp.

Then came the presidential debate.

Obama had me at 'hello.'

Now with the veep debate I slowed my crawl to Obama's camp for a moment.

Biden was good. Palin was good. I felt Palin was unable to be coherent every time but Biden seemed to focus too much on Bush's administration and attacking McCain.

In the end, I thought Biden was a bit lost on which side he was on and Palin put on a good performance as she was coached to do for the last week.

She distracted me by the good act she put on, but after listening to the facts and not being drawn in by the "Disney movie" speeches she was throwing out there all the time, I'm back to my steady crawl to Obama.

Oh, and I applaud Biden for taking the air out of her "I'm an average American like you and I know your pain" schtick by revealing his own pain about his past tragedy in his family. I thought, unlike Palin who shoved her hardships in our faces the whole time, Biden had real emotion behind it and allowed it to speak for itself.

And kudos to Biden for the "bridge to nowhere" comment. That cracked me up.

I wish there were more veep debates, but I'll see what happens with the Presidential debates in the future.

[LostArtofRolando]

Haha, I think that he's attacking McCain because the Obama camp doesn't really view Palin as much of a serious threat.

As for her being coached, they all are.  After you get years of experience, you don't need it as much.  THis is what, McCain's third or fourth bid for Pres.  Biden's older than dirt (so is McCain I know), so he has plenty of experience in public speaking.  Obama, well, I don't care for him, but he seems to have a knack for public speaking, which is good.  And McCain, well he's been in the public sphere for 40 years now, he shouldn't need any coaching.  But they all have advisors and speech writers.  No president/major political figure writes their own speeches any more.  Hell Ben Stein (Bueller, Win Ben Stein's money, Clear Eyes commercials) made his first claim to fame as Nixon's speechwriter.

[disnut8]

Venegence, I am not flaming you all but on another forum you posted a very clear view that you did not like Palin at all.  I'm just wondering if that clouded your initial mindset when starting to watch the debate.  Kind of like "I don't like Palin so she's going to have to wow me in order for me to even like her a little bit".  Again, not flaming you but wondering if that could have affected you.

This election is very interesting in that the Vice Presidential debate was getting the same if not more interest that the Presidential debate.  The presidential candidates are one more experienced politician and one not so experienced.  That flips with the Vice Presidents and parties.  Obama has had over a year to "overcome" his alleged inexperience.  Palin has had about a month.  That, I think, is the main reason for all the Palin attention.

Rolando is correct.  Everyone in this election is coached.  Just like any high school student will study up on issues in a debate for a grade.  It's just this grade is the highest office in the country and a chance to lead one of the most powerful countries in the world.

[elmono311]

To be honest, Palin as a choice for VP was just because it's all shock and awe that a relatively younger woman was chosen to be the VP for a major political party than anything else. I also wish she'd stop comparing the country as a whole to Alaska and the things she's done there. It's friggin Alaska. Whoopie, a state with less people than the metro area of Omaha.

And it's vice presidents. I'm more worried about the two men running for President.

[disnut8]

To be honest, Palin as a choice for VP was just because it's all shock and awe that a relatively younger woman was chosen to be the VP for a major political party than anything else. I also wish she'd stop comparing the country as a whole to Alaska and the things she's done there. It's friggin Alaska. Whoopie, a state with less people than the metro area of Omaha.

And it's vice presidents. I'm more worried about the two men running for President.

Don't forget Ross Periot told Bill Clinton that all he (Clinton) had done was to be a governor of an insignificant state (Arkansas).  I thought is was funny any of our states could be called "insignificant" and then Clinton went on to win two terms.  Of course, that was "only" Ross Periot saying it.

[elmono311]

Arkansas > Alaska. At least Arkansas is among the 48 states and thus can keep in touch with the majority of the country... as in Arkansas actually has to deal with interstate commerce. Alaska has to worry about the Eskimo invasions and Russian nuclear submarines cracking open in the ocean.

[LostArtofRolando]

Haha, we have Arkansas to blame for the end of small-town America... Wal-mart!  I do agree that it seems like a more important state though.  And I also have to agree that the Veeps don't really matter too much to me.  When's the last time a Veep ever mattered? Ford?  He didn't really do too much, so I guess LBJ.  The Veep's not important unless the President is no longer around (knock on wood).

[elmono311]

Yeah, that's pretty much the only important job the VP has, as a backup President. As for the VP's other job, how many times in the history of the United States has the VP broken a tie in the Senate?

[LostArtofRolando]

I'm sure the only one who'd claim they did is Al Gore... "I invented pants"!

[disnut8]

Yeah, that's pretty much the only important job the VP has, as a backup President. As for the VP's other job, how many times in the history of the United States has the VP broken a tie in the Senate?

Quite a few - http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/VPTies.pdf

First time July 18, 1789; last time March 13, 2008.

Al Gore only broke a tie four times in eight years (thankfully).

[elmono311]

Al Gore > George W. Bush. Stupid Florida and stupid electoral college. With today's technology, that outdated system is no longer needed. We can easily do popular vote.

[LostArtofRolando]

I beg to differ.  THe education level in America may have gone up, but common sense has gone way down.  I think even if we got rid of the electoral college, it wouldn't really matter too much, because maybe a 1/3 of those elgible to vote in America ever bother to.  It's funny that someone can rule our country with less than a third of the country really supporting them... and then all the people who didn't vote sit around and whine about the current president.  If you didn't vote, you gave up your voice.

[disnut8]

The entire reason for the electoral college in the United States is to protect the rights of the smaller states.  That is one of the founding bases for the Constitution and why the House of Representatives is based on population.  That balances out with only two members of each state being in the Senate.  The electoral college combines both principles by having the number of electors from each state being equal to the total number of Congressmen.

That is why the combined total of electoral votes from the eight smallest states in population (Wyoming, DC, Vermont, North Dakota, Alaska, South Dakota, Delaware, and Montana) equals 24.  That combined population is 5,674,408.  The closest one state to that total is Maryland with 5,618,344.  But that state only gets 8 electoral votes.

In fact, Mississippi has 2,395,955 more people than Wyoming but only gets one more electoral vote.  And you would have to combine the total population of either Illinois or Pennsylvania to Texas in order to get the total electoral votes of California.

Additionally, it's up to the states to determine how their electoral votes are cast.  48 states and DC have chosen to have their electors cast their votes on party lines.  Only Maine and Nebraska do it differently.

So the entire voting process comes down to equality for the states with the states actually making the ultimate decision on how to vote for the President.  A fundamental principle of the Constitution.  States rights.

We now end the American Civics lesson for the day.

[elmono311]

Yeah, I knew the electoral college was still around because of the whole small state/large state stuff. And the fact if it went away, the larger states would completely lose the leverage they had in elections by holding a large number of votes (as witnessed in 2000 with Florida and 2004 with Ohio).

[LostArtofRolando]

Only Maine and Nebraska do it differently.

Indeed, although Nebraska has never cast a split vote.

[Vengeance]

Disnut, I do absolutely despise Palin. I said that on this forum, too.

But when it comes down to debates, I'm too open minded to let it sway me. In fact, I think my previous dislike of her made me cut her more slack than not any at all against Biden.

I expected more from Biden so I was tougher on him.

And Rolando, I totally agree on the people who don't vote and then whine. I don't usually give a rat's ass what they have to say. They gave up that voice when they chose not to take part in the selection of their leaders.

As for the electoral college, it still sucks. I don't care about the state part of it. We're all Americans and that should be good enough for all of us to choose our president, regardless of what state we reside in. One vote should equal one vote.

[LostArtofRolando]

I've had one of these conversations with my fiancee Jai, and she always provides a unique perspective being an immigrant.  She says, and I've come to agree with her over time the more I get to know folks, that folks should have to pass a citizen test, whether you were born here or not.  Like you should get the basic rights if you were born here, but if you want to vote and be a full citizen, you should have to earn the right.  People take for granted all the freedoms and liberties they have in this country.  Why should I be out fighting for our folks on foreign soil when they can't bother to get off their asses for 15 minutes to hit their local polling station once every 4 years.

I know this isnt related to the electoral college or the Veep Debate, but I had to get that off my chest.  I know I have a jilted voice in politics based on the fact I'm in the military and have been in combat and such, but that's how I feel based on my experiences.

[disnut8]

Good points Rolando.  I've seen a sample of the questions for the citizen's test and if a born American can't answer enough of them for a passing grade, they really don't deserve a voice in American government.

And taking 15 minutes to get off your ass to vote?   How about doing nothing but filling out an absentee ballot?  Here in Georgia, all you have to do is request an application for an absentee ballot, fill in out, send it in and be verified as a registered voter, and a ballot is mailed back to you.  You just fill that out and send it back in.  You don't even have to get up off your ass.  And you don't need a reason at all.  It's the first year for this.  It's easy, it's quick, it's legal, and I still have a voice in the government.  AND, I can do more research after I get the ballot for the candidates and issues on it.

Both Rich and I are voting this way.  I also did it for the primary.

[elmono311]

I should look into putting my vote in now. Pre-voting just started here.

[disnut8]

Georgia has pre-voting too.  I'm telling you, there are so many opportunities in this state for people to vote, it's not even funny.  A valid photo ID is required for in person voting which had people up in arms because disadvantaged people didn't have drivers' licenses.  But there is a free photo ID available AND free transportation to get said ID.  There is even free transportation to get to and from the polls.

Other than having the election booth coming to your home, there is absolutely no reason not to vote in the state of Georgia.

[elmono311]

Yeah, photo ID doesn't mean a driver's license. People need to educate themselves about things instead of looking like idiots because they don't research information.

[disnut8]

It's a certain group that starts with a A.C. and ends with a L.U. that gripes the most.  Also another one that starts with a NAA and ends with a CP.

The former wanted to make sure the homeless were all registered and able to vote.  Both are vocally opposed to photo ID of any kind to vote.

[Adam]

I was not impressed with Palin except her in a bikini and McCain makes me think he's just throwing words in the air that people want to hear but if you listend to his tax and housing proposal , what he says is not economically possible without raising taxes which he says he is cutting taxes across the board. You can't build the bigger better mouse trap with out the money to progress from what you already have.

[Vengeance]

And now Palin is going to be on SNL. Will the craziness never end?

[disnut8]

I didn't see this until now but Obama and McCain have also appeared on Saturday Night Live.  The only one of the four that hasn't is Joe Biden.  McCain has been on David Letterman and Obama has been on Ellen and Oprah.  Bill Clinton was on Arsenio Hall many years ago.  And Hillary Clinton has also been on Saturday Night Live.

Sarah Palin's appearance was not a new thing.